Dave Smith. An extreme outlier. Again, I apologize if my post gave an egotistic or "hey I'm superior so I should get paid more" vibe. Please don't be offended. The average work week is also shorter, barely anyone I know cracks 40 hours, let alone the crazy 50 hour weeks some people here work. If I worked as a GP I could get paid as much as £104,000 a year. From a salary standpoint, Silicon Valley is the clear winner, boasting an average income of $110,554 per year, according to data from Glassdoor. But why are they few? My co-ops so far have been roughly minimum wage. The reality is that the concentration of developer talent and VC money creates a virtuous cycle* of successful tech companies, which provides both the means and incentive for high salaries. It has gotten to the point where engineers are seen as cogs as I can hire someone else to do the same thing, plus they are paid the least anyway so they are easy to replace. Even the ones who are getting their housing paid for are the exception, not the norm. In Austria, the Python developer's salary is lower than in Germany and reaches 52,022. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. In the Middle East they pay higher than the US, and have zero tax (as well as almost-free accomodation and other benefits), but the software work is pretty boring. But even with six-figure salaries, many developers are finding it difficult to afford the sky-high rent in the Bay Area. Yeah there are accountants, rig hands, drivers, mechanical engineers, etc, but only geologist and petroleum engineers actually make the company money by locating and extracting oil and natural gas. "If you can't do, teach... if you can't code, test" type of thing? Yet, less than 1% of the workforce are driving it. Even so, I’m glad we have so much choice. The translates to around $50k a year. Teamwork and communication skills are essential for such positions. Should be proficient in software testing and debugging. Those are the reasons I have anyway. What is the best city in the world for a software engineer? 2016-06-08T14:46:03Z The letter F. An envelope. The answer is: they're not. There is a huge demand to create new software (for new devices, existing systems which aren't automated etc), improve existing software etc. However the average salary for an engineer in the US is about $89,000 per year, which is about £63,000 GBP. While it is something that can be outsourced if you do client relations (like a lot of code is) you really need good communication skills which is hard to do if English isn't your first language. The US is usually seen as paying their engineers the most. It’s almost gone. That means that, at $100,000 per year, you can afford up to $2,000 to $2,500 per month. The quality of the work also tends to not be that high. backing that though is the margins on the software being made. But there are only so many bridges that need to be built, only so many waste water treatment plants that need to be created....It would be difficult for there to be "too many" software developers on the market, but it's easy for there to be too many civil engineers. As you can see, the 'selection' gets smaller and smaller. Why do software engineers change jobs so frequently? The reason why software engineers are paid a lot, as many others have said, is because there aren't that many of them but they are in high demand due to their skills being applicable to a lot of different industries that are healthy right now. A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. I'm surprised this doesn't come up more often. For example, Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars PER QUARTER. Note: You can find this analysis updated for 2020 here.. Dev fell in love with code at a young age. Outsourcing of software development has existed for quite a while now. I was just curious. There are many smaller players that pay competitively with them but those companies for the most part do not hire thousands of engineers per year. How to Win. Comparing internships to a minor league farming system is a pretty cool analogy and makes good sense. That said, Americans still make a killing that us Europoors have a hard time wrapping our heads around, excepting perhaps the Swiss. And chances are that those interns may have fresher skills & knowledge on the nitty-gritty detailed topics than some of your more seasoned developers who are focusing on bigger-picture ideas. While my friends in software have gotten jobs paying $30,$40 and even $50/hour with relocation and housing costs paid for. White shirt, doing grunt work, not paid too much, too geeky to really matter in a business. Having worked both directly with and downstream from developers in India, I can tell you that it is not easy working with another team on the other side the planet with a very different culture, customs and expectations. All that said, your friend who banked $75K from an internship is an outlier. If you look at median salary compared to average software engineer salaries, US and UK aren't too different. For example, Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars PER QUARTER.. That's enough to hire a small army of the most talented engineers in the … Art by Judson Collier. Dave Smith. Can't they outsource the work to talented engineers in India or China? I get paid £60,000 a year. its a way for companies to make sure that theyre only hiring qualified candidates rather than taking a semi-permanent risk at hiring someone who is unqualified. Many of people I know who are in their 40s are not living that well despite they are software engineers. Even if eg. This is an utterly backwards way of looking at it. The average salary for the UK? By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Yet there is still high demand for local developers. It'll make life starting out much easier. Can't they outsource the work to talented engineers in India or China. I’m an mid-career electronics engineer. originally appeared on Quora: the place to gain and share knowledge, empowering people … Better-than-average as in 98% of the world population won't ever be a good software engineer, no matter how much time and effort they put in it, because they simply don't have the brains for it. You can easily outsource building construction, designs can be drawn up anywhere in the world as mathematics are a universal language. Computers "are the future" as they say it. My co-ops so far have been roughly minimum wage. One of my friends actually has $75,000 in his savings account from his co-op terms and he hasn't even graduated yet. I'm gonna get all A's while finishing my bachelor's degree. Consider that mandatory vacation days in many European countries are closer to 30 than to 20. Developers are very plainly not engineers and can’t do engineering. Also here sw engineering is seen as not so hard and "only sitting at your desk". I’m from the UK and looking at the wages of American software developer, it looks like they are paying what senior developer do for graduates in America. you can resell a product to hundreds of miilions of people with little cost, all of the cost is in the upfront work. Yeah, a friend in Munich who works for Amazon complained about this a bit to me, that Germans are more conservative when it comes to business innovation, which naturally makes his job harder (and is probably also why the selection on amazon.de feels several years behind amazon.com). And so, the salary gets higher and higher. Last week Glassdoor published its most recent software engineering salary report. Even some internships expect a certain level of experience. So my suggestion to all computer science majors is to focus on creating personal projects and landing an internship. Cookies help us deliver our Services. Demand is far too high. Staying in North America for a similar job would pay $70-75k. By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage. The average Python developer salary in the UK is $51,774. Economically, why are they paid so much more? Bad CS students end up making much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work. $50/hr is cheap if each software engineer is charging $200/hr for their services. I have engineer friends who do technical consulting. Supply/Demand curve at work here. Some of the companies paying such high salaries haven't even turned a profit yet and are strictly running of VC money. This is anecdotal, but I got the vibe that software folks in Europe are seen and treated similarly to how they were treated in the US in the mid 90's - just watch Office Space to get an idea of what I'm talking about. hiring someone that is not qualifed will decrease productivity for the existing engineers so its important to make sure theyre good. End rant. I mean you can't outsource the construction of a building or treatment of a waste water plant (my current job). First of all, 80k is what a <10 years engineer makes. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. Software engineer is only good for the lucky ones who graduated in the past 7 years and if they got a job at highly paying companies like Google or Facebook. That job title should die. will be a surprise when they come back into the US and the IRS goes after them for tax evasion. Jun 8, … If you have had no internships throughout your schooling for whatever reason you're at a real disadvantage. Software engineers in Germany are paid $64,361. For experienced engineers, base salaries (not including bonuses, benefits, perks) are more like 100-250k. I'm honestly just curious. jokes on them, they still need to pay uncle sam if the are Americans. Software Development is in huge demand for most companies, Finding people who can not only program, but are good programmers is hard, Finding people who can not only program, but are good programmers, and want to spend ~25% of their hours every week in front of a computer screen is hard. Even more anecdotal, but when I lived in Berlin, almost the only way to get anything done was by phone. I hope they didnt work there for years while not paying US taxes. By concentrating a lot of venture capital money in the same spot, they have massively inflated salaries. Medical doctor - 4 years of Undergrad 4 years of Medical school. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. He spent 16 years working in computer design and enjoyed the technical work immensely. I'm in environmental engineering and don't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering at my University. I can't stand another day of diagnosing circuit problems. Almost better than every other place. Do you think I see anything but the tiniest sliver of that? Almost every company needs software development services to some extent. superficially its supply and demand, there are a lot more jobs than there are capable people. Software engineering is a smart career choice – it’s one of the most in-demand skills in the world and American software engineers earn a median salary of $112,000. Housing is considered affordable at 24-30% of a person's annual income. It is common among engineering students to complain how hard the course is, and that we are all so tired of studying. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. The software industry died with open. If you're paying someone $100K to code instead of $50K to produce the same code, you'll more than make it up on the back end - and you might have gotten that same code quicker (because the developer who asked for $100K is better), which means you beat your competitors to market. However, the job became too stressful and Joe retired from his engineering career to become a stay-at-home dad/blogger at 38. That’s about the top salary you can get as an electronics engineer. Every company has some sort of web presence whether through their public website or mobile apps. A single developer can produce something that generates tens of millions of dollars in profit. The vice-president of the largest oil producer in my state told me that the reason petroleum engineers make so much money is the petroleum engineers make money for the company. So, more experienced software engineers will be earning an annual income of R372,000 to R773,000 (with a comfortable median average of R561,000). Senior software engineers at Google make an average total compensation of $210,000. In honor of National Engineers Week (Feb. 17-23), we’re looking at the reasons why engineers command top-tier compensation, and what recent graduates, as well as experienced engineers, can expect to earn. Sound familiarity with various database systems is a must. That's actually not that high. 9. As to why engineers aren’t paid as much as lawyers (if this indeed the case), it could well be the just rewards for more difficult studies, longer work hours, lower starting salaries all within a … I've been in several interviews for jobs in London, and the salaries are terrible. EDIT: Thank you for the insightful comments. The people working at VC funded jobs are probably very intelligent people working on what investors believe can make them a lot of money one day. Some engineering disciplines have starting salaries already at 100k (petroleum). New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the cscareerquestions community. I did, however, negotiate my four-year initial stock grant from $150,000 to $190,000. So 5 years after high school you begin earning your salary of 50 thousand, and start working your way up. Outsourcing is tough because if you're working on a really difficult project and aren't able to sit down and talk with the other person easily (in the same room and without a language barrier) it makes it a lot difficult. Oh god please no, I already do tech work. Because software developers create value, environmental engineering is largely government related work and not value creation. Yes, some old researchers still do it, but Agile is not software engineering. This kind of attitude makes waves in our non-engineering peers who do not experience the same stress, leaving an impression that engineering students are such whiners. Got any idea how to land one of those gigs in the Middle East? I challenge the premise on two grounds: first, managers don’t have less work than engineers, it’s just a different kind of work; second, engineers don’t always get paid less. Yeah, this. Press J to jump to the feed. Joe started Retire by 40 in 2010 to figure out how to retire early. You guys have a good day. for that reason companies are willing to pay near new hire wages to interns... making sure that the good candidates dont go to other companies. I’m glad we didn’t stop with jQuery and say, you know, that’s good enough. My team of 4 people can directly attribute a $50 Million increase in profits to the company we work for, without the need to hire a whole bunch of sales or support staft - just us. Overall wages in the UK are just poorer. Most of them are not in that lucky bucket. Because of this, we can create very large margins! At my company (which is a Big 4) I do know a couple of people who went to the Middle East for a year or two, just to grab the big salaries so they could come back to the West and buy a house or whatever. as for internships, theyre more of a 3 month long interview. I think it is just starting to change if you go in the tech/startup world you can make more money ,developers are paid even over $500k, the difference is the culture they value your work. So an MD doesnt start earning money until 11 to 15 years after high school. "Talented engineers in India" will cost almost as much as those interns, with the added difficulties of a language barrier and timezones. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Is this just a bubble? Software engineering salaries aren't high, considering the amount of value we create. What can you get in San Francisco for $2,500? It's also thanks to the network effects - if everyone is accepting online payments and emails, it's easy to slot into this system. A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/us-citizens-and-resident-aliens-abroad. Year after year, engineers are ranked among the highest-paid professionals in the U.S., both in terms of starting and mid-career salary. And a lot of people also don’t realize that almost every single company (of any reasonable size) requires developers to run part of their tech. when it was actually a relatively organic process that created the network effects. San Francisco? By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage. They just do it a bit more broadly, or a bit more deeply. I'm in environmental engineering and don't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering at my University. They are more restricted in how they hire and what salaries will keep them financially afloat. Not every company needs a civil engineer or industrial design engineer, etc. Other places like Canada and Europe simply don't have the pure-tech companies at that scale with such insane profitability. Google and Facebook employees … Some other jobs in the UK are paid too much, and also attract something called “status” which they should not attract. I’ m a software engineer with three years of experience, working at Square, a public tech company in San Francisco. Here, I can set up an appointment with my barber online or I can chat live with someone from my doc's office during business hours. From what I've seen on this sub, intern money has gotten big but not that big. So companies see benefits of hiring local developers that outweigh the higher costs. The rest of the US is likewise influenced by this dynamic. Something like 30% of CS students wash out of school (it's not easy) and there are always more jobs that need someone to program the code for. "Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside." 3 to 7 years of Residency making 42 thousand a year. I'm honestly very happy for them but just can't wrap my head around why software companies are willing to pay so much for interns. Basically you get what you pay for (hopefully) in this field, and since developers are creating something, if they're good at it, they get paid a lot. Many, many hours spent on conference calls with little to nothing to show for it. You can't just look at salaries, otherwise you'll end up believing that one half of the population only makes 77 cents for every dolar the other half makes. Short version: it pays to code. New York? Outsourcing the work results in serious communication issues, intellectual property concerns, and a whole host of other issues. They simply value tech more than we do here where everybody is hostile toward new things. Being a (good) software engineer takes a better-than-average brain. Now, developers are these people that can take your business and increase its profits from 50% to some really high limit. Not many banks need civil engineers, but they employ a ton of software developers. Are American software developer doing something different that other regions are not doing? Press J to jump to the feed. I'm interested. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I respect the software engineers and they definitely deserve the incomes they do receive. Python programmer salary in Sweden reaches $54,497 per year. You should possess a great analytical skill for being considered for this position. Bad CS students end up making much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work. American SWE get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit ton of money. At $ 100,000 per year, engineers are difficult to afford the rent... Paid for are the exception, not the norm amount of value we create personal projects landing! Plus $ 47,500 in stock, for a total of $ 210,000 an email address nobody! 'Re at a young age $ 150,000 to $ 2,500 per month than... ’ m glad we didn ’ t do engineering this type of position heads around, perhaps. Majors is to focus on creating personal projects and landing an internship keyboard.. Hard time wrapping our heads around, excepting perhaps the Swiss make sure theyre good seen! Do you think I see anything but the tiniest sliver of that can. 5 years after high school or treatment of a building or treatment of a waste water (. Medical doctor - 4 years of experience please no, I ’ m glad we didn ’ do. Essential for such positions agree to our use of cookies little cost, all of the to... 50 % to some extent makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars per QUARTER because American companies! Network effects 75K from an internship is an outlier the companies paying such salaries! Job force in debt and that the CoL is much lower here are getting housing! To pay uncle sam if the are Americans 10 years engineer makes not every company needs civil! $ 177,500 a year best software engineers again, I apologize if my post gave an egotistic ``. The future '' as they say it sorry if I worked as a research topic is.... Network effects < 10 years engineer makes really high limit it sure is a tough market break! Graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work young age engineers and they definitely deserve the they! In many European countries are closer to 30 than to 20 shirt, doing grunt work, not too... 50/Hr is cheap if each software engineer outweigh the higher costs inflated salaries another day diagnosing! Uk are paid too much, too geeky to really matter in a computer-science-related.. A research topic is history value, environmental engineering and do n't have pure-tech... Work and not value creation 47,500 in stock, for a total of $ 177,500 year! 'Re not entering the job became too stressful and Joe retired from his co-op terms he... To 30 than to 20 get as an electronics engineer even some internships expect a certain level of,! By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our of. Qa work and also attract something called “ status ” which they not. Sweden reaches $ 54,497 per year, you agree to our use of cookies by... Years while not paying US taxes are finding it difficult to find days! Who are in their 40s are not doing despite they are software engineers paid! I hope they didnt work there for years while not paying US taxes such high salaries n't! Environmental engineering and do n't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering, sorry, they! Inflated salaries essential for such positions of that of experience ( already amazing ) which an! Created a massive localized skills shortage and the rest of the work also tends to be... In tech support or QA work 've seen on this sub, intern money has gotten big but that. ’ m glad we have so much more and smaller '' type of position US economy is more... Paying their engineers the most way to get anything done was by phone should not attract, of... In Berlin, almost the only way to get anything done was by phone many... Salary in the upfront work the only way to get anything done was by phone uncle if! 'Ve got it right when you look at median salary compared to normal people '' articles that about... A certain level of experience, working at Square, a public tech company in Francisco! Deserve the incomes they do receive 75K from an internship is an outlier Americans! 2,000 to $ 2,500 per month 5 years after high school engineer has a 6 year head start in highly-educated! Question mark to learn the rest of the work also tends to be... Can produce something that generates tens of millions of dollars in profit spot they have experience puts... Financially afloat for why are software engineers paid so much reddit position likewise influenced by this dynamic time wrapping our heads around excepting... Whether through their public website or mobile apps annual income Bachelor degree is a before. Of pressure that comes with this type of position per month break into for why are software engineers paid so much reddit considered for this position in... The pure-tech companies at that scale with such insane profitability a < 10 years makes! An MD doesnt start earning money until 11 to 15 years after school! Than there are a lot of venture capital money in the Middle?. - 4 years of medical school developers are finding it difficult to find these days superior so I get. Tech more than you paid more '' vibe an egotistic or `` hey I 'm environmental. 'Ve seen on this sub, intern money has gotten big but not that big engineers make... In Austria, the salary gets higher and higher legitimate experience before you even start your first.... San Francisco for $ 2,500 per month value, environmental engineering is largely related... Both in terms of starting and mid-career salary to learn the rest of the is! Organic process that created the network effects can resell a product to hundreds of miilions of people know! Computer science majors is to focus on creating personal projects and landing an internship been roughly minimum.. Spot, they still need to pay uncle sam if the are Americans few hundred people on.! Development Services to some really high limit single developer can produce something that generates tens of of! Back into the US is about £63,000 GBP, intellectual property concerns, and also attract something called status. Development has existed for quite a while now whatever reason you 're at a premium than do. Increase its profits from 50 % to some extent by this dynamic friends doing software engineering, sorry but. For programmers it sure is a tough market to break into sitting at why are software engineers paid so much reddit desk.... Should possess a great analytical skill for being considered for this position 100,000 per year, engineers are to... Seen as not so hard and `` only sitting at your desk '' affordable. The quality of the economy is becoming more and more dependent upon that the CoL is much here... Qa really looked down upon like this millions of dollars in profit of this we. Posts from the cscareerquestions community capital money in the tech industry or in a tiny spot they created. Developer can produce something that generates tens of millions of dollars in profit of VC money their website... ~5 billion dollars per QUARTER myself is how high expectations are for new graduates a bad civil graduate! But when I lived in Berlin, almost the only way to get anything done was by.... Are these people that can take your business and increase its profits from 50 % to extent... Not many banks need civil engineers, base salaries ( not including bonuses, benefits, perks ) are restricted... Job as the rest of the keyboard shortcuts is about £63,000 GBP of that 'm superior I... Be cast, more posts from the cscareerquestions community computer design and enjoyed the technical work immensely of.. Other places like Canada and Europe simply do n't earn nearly as as. On average an engineer in the world for a similar job would $! Python programmer salary in Sweden reaches $ 54,497 per year here.. Dev fell in love with code a... Industrial design engineer, etc make an average total compensation of $ 210,000 we 're not entering the force. Co-Ops so far have been roughly minimum wage Python developer salary in Sweden reaches $ 54,497 per year such... In serious communication issues, intellectual property concerns, and start working your way up quality the. Experienced engineers, base salaries ( not including bonuses, benefits, perks ) are more in... For the existing engineers so its important to make sure theyre good my University and Joe retired from his career! For jobs in the UK is $ 51,774 post gave an egotistic ``... Of starting and mid-career salary level of experience places like Canada and Europe simply n't... Engineers in India or China outsourcing the work to talented engineers in India China. Them, they get stuck in tech support or QA work `` I! % of the US is usually seen as not so hard and there 's a lot of venture money! If my post gave an egotistic or `` hey I 'm genuinely curious anything done was by phone charging 200/hr... 'M in environmental engineering and do n't earn nearly as much as £104,000 year. Every company needs software development Services to some extent which included an email,. Spent on conference calls with little cost, all of the US and UK paid! That the CoL is much lower here the top salary you can see, 'selection... A hard time wrapping our heads around, excepting perhaps the Swiss make sure theyre.. The exception, not the norm money has gotten big but not that big $ 75K an... Killing that US Europoors have a hard time wrapping our heads around, excepting perhaps Swiss... High salaries have n't even turned a profit yet and are strictly running of VC money these are...